龚鹏程x西蒙·马金森｜对退出全球高校排行榜的看法
龚鹏程对话海外学者第五十五期：在后现代情境中，被技术统治的人类社会，只有强化交谈、重建沟通伦理，才能获得文化新生的力量。这不是谁的理论，而是每个人都应实践的活动。龚鹏程先生遊走世界，并曾主持过“世界汉学研究中心”。我们会陆续推出“龚鹏程对话海外学者”系列文章，请他对话一些学界有意义的灵魂。范围不局限于汉学，会涉及多种学科。以期深山长谷之水，四面而出。
西蒙·马金森教授（Professor Simon Marginson）
牛津大学的高等教育教授，ESRC/RE全球高等教育中心主任以及《高等教育》的联合主编。
龚鹏程教授：您好。我想听听您对“高等教育和社会不平等”的分析。因为东亚地区长期有“通过高等教育可以改变社会不公平”的迷思。
西蒙·马金森教授：龚教授，您好。在我看来，高等教育是社会分层的再生产（和可能的转变）的一个因素，但不是最重要的。多年来对各国的观察表明，先前的财富、财产和社会地位的家庭分配；收入决定过程；以及政府的税收/支出政策，比高等教育更重要。
教育中的公平是规范性的，是受习俗约束的，并因具体环境的不同而不同。它意味着一种正义的意图，以及一个政策和教育实践的领域，而不是一种在社会场所之间可以比较的固定性质。
公平的概念根据政治文化、行为和权利规范以及普遍的期望而变化。自20世纪50年代和60年代以来，高等教育中的公平已经从所有有才能的人都应该有机会使用这种才能的假设，转变为另一种设想，那就是因为所有的人都有潜在的可教育性，所以他们应该有教育机会。
高等教育中的两个主要公平目标已经变成了普遍社会包容的公平，以及所有社会群体的学生平等获得教育机会的公平。
In my view higher education is one but not the most important factor in the reproduction (and possible transformation) of social stratification. Observation of countries over many years suggests to me that the prior familial distribution of wealth, property and social status; the processes of income determination; and the tax/spend policies of government, are more important than higher education. Equity in education is normative and custom-bound and varies according to the specific setting. It signifies an intention to justice, and a field of policy and educational practice, rather than a fixed quality comparable between social sites. Notions of equity vary according to the political culture, norms of conduct and entitlement, and prevailing expectations. Since the 1950s and 1960s, equity in higher education has moved from the assumption that all people with talent should have the opportunity to use it, to the assumption that because all people are potentially educable they should have educational opportunities. The two principal equity goals in higher education have become equity as universal social inclusion, and equity as the equal access of students from all social groups to opportunities in education.
龚鹏程教授：请介绍ESRC/RE全球高等教育中心和您的相关机构。
西蒙·马金森教授：ESRC/RE全球高等教育中心是一个由（目前）六所英国大学和五所国际大学组成的研究合作伙伴，专注于与全球、国家和地方高等教育方面有关的项目。
它的资助期为2015-2023年。它是由经济和社会研究委员会建立的，有英国政府提供的资金和参与大学的补贴（后者支持研究人员参与）。
我们的研究旨在为高等教育政策和实践提供信息并加以改进。我们的10个研究项目整合了地方、国家和全球视角，我们的研究人员分布在五大洲的九个国家：欧洲、亚洲、非洲、澳大利亚和北美洲。
The ESRC/RE Centre for Global Higher Education is a research partnership of (currently) six UK and five international universities focused on projects in relation to global, national and local aspects of higher education. It funded for the period 2015-2023. It was established by the Economic and Social Research Council with both UK government-sourced funding and subsidies from participating universities (the latter support researcher participation). Our research aims to inform and improve higher education policy and practice. Our 10 research projects integrate local, national and global perspectives, and our researchers are based in nine countries across five continents: Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia and North America.
龚鹏程教授：您这本书《变化世界的高等教育变革》的书名非常有趣。因为既是变化世界中的高等教育，故这个高教正在变革；也显示高等教育变革正在变化世界。您可以说说这种双重变化吗？现在的教育为何如此剧烈变化？
西蒙·马金森教授：教育和世界都在不断地变化。我不会认为现在的高等教育变化特别快——我们坚持传统的教学模式和现代的机构-系统结构，这在一些国家至少有75年的历史。(这并不是说将来不会发生更多的戏剧性变化)。
高等教育部门与社会部分隔绝，部分自治，不受任何和每一个社会或文化潮流的影响，但在大多数国家，该部门对政府的变化非常开放。
研究型大学部门对地缘政治的变化也特别开放，例如，中美紧张关系对研究合作模式变化的影响。
高等教育在多大程度上改变了世界？这很难辨别，但我们不应低估新知识的潜在影响。
在较小的程度上，连续的毕业生群体所吸收的社会关系价值观也有影响，尽管在道德行为问题上，家庭和家人的影响可能比大学更大。
Education, and the world, are continually changing. I would not argue that higher education is changing especially rapidly now – we persist with what is a traditional pedagogical model and a modern institution-system structure that is at least 75 years old in some countries. (That is not to say more dramatic change could not occur in future). The higher education sector is partly insulated from society, partly autonomous, and not shaped by any and every social or cultural current, but in most countries the sector is very open to changes in government. The research university sector is also especially open to geo-political shifts, for example the effects of US-China tensions in changing patterns of research collaboration. How much is higher education changing the world? This is difficult to discern but we should not underestimate the potential impacts of new knowledge. To a lesser extent, the social relational values absorbed by successive graduate cohorts are also influential, though in matters of ethical conduct the home and family are probably larger influences than the university.
龚鹏程教授：高等教育，现在是朝全球一体化发展吗？您对目前有些国家的大学退出高校全球排名榜，怎么看？
西蒙·马金森教授：高等教育——尤其是科学知识的实践——是天然的合作，因此，随着时间的推移，往往会促进更紧密的全球一体化。
然而，过去30年高等教育和知识的全球化与欧美（"西方"）主导的程度有关，这不符合全球能力的多极化特征，从长远来看是不可持续的。
目前，地缘政治紧张和国家政治议程正在导致全球合作的部分脱钩——脱钩的过程始于美国的前景变化。
一些大学退出《泰晤士报》高等教育和QS排名（不可能退出基于外部数据的ARWU）是完全可以理解的，因为这些排名的框架都是有利于英语国家大学的。但如果退出的过程导致另一种更优越的全球参与形式，那就更好。
退回到以国家为单位的做法将是令人遗憾的。每个人都能从基于相互尊重的良好跨国合作中获益。
Higher education – and especially the practices of scientific knowledge – are naturally collaborative and as such, tend to foster closer global integration over time. However, the globalisation of the last 30 years in higher education and knowledge has been associated with an extent of Euro-American (‘Western’) domination that does not match the multi-polar character of global capacity and is unsustainable in the longer term (see attached article). At present geopolitical tensions and state political agendas are leading to a partial decoupling of global collaboration – the process of decoupling began in a change of outlook in the United States. The withdrawal ofsome universities from the Times Higher and QS rankings (it is not possible to withdraw from the ARWU which is based on externally sourced data) is perfectly understandable as these rankings are both framed so as to favour the Anglophone universities, but it would be better if the process of withdrawal leads to another and superior form of global engagement. A retreat into a nation-bound practice would be regrettable. Everyone gains from healthy cross-border collaboration based on mutual respect.
龚鹏程
龚鹏程，1956年生于台北，台湾师范大学博士，当代著名学者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。
办有大学、出版社、杂志社、书院等，并规划城市建设、主题园区等多处。讲学于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、台北、巴黎、日本、澳门等地举办过书法展。现为美国龚鹏程基金会主席。
举报/反馈